bleeding like a stuck hog

[icemanrrc]

I FINALLY got my base setup going after battling coax issues with shorted ends on LMR400. As far as I can tell with my meter, all is well with the coax. But the problem is now I am bleeding all over everything in my house. TV's, answering machine, computer speakers, you name it. I am sure I am bleeding over next door neighbors as well. Can anyone steer me in the right direction on how to eliminate this bleed over problem? Here is my setup.

1. Superstar 158EDX - peaked, tuned, Top Gun Modulator, Top Gun speech processor from Sparky's
2. Fatboy base amp - 4 x 1446, AB-1
3. Drake low pass filter (just got it off ebay)
4. IMAX 2000 - chimney mounted. Top of antenna is 50+ feet above ground and 20-25 feet above the roof line. I have solid c0pper ground wire coming from pole mast down to a 8 or 9 foot c0pper ground rod.
5. LMR-400 coax
6. LMR-400 coax jumpers
7. Dosy 3001-TCP meter calibrated by Sparky
8. Astastic D104 Silver Eagle

[linx]

I FINALLY got my base setup going after battling coax issues with shorted ends on LMR400. As far as I can tell with my meter, all is well with the coax. But the problem is now I am bleeding all over everything in my house. TV's, answering machine, computer speakers, you name it. I am sure I am bleeding over next door neighbors as well. Can anyone steer me in the right direction on how to eliminate this bleed over problem? Here is my setup.

1. Superstar 158EDX - peaked, tuned, Top Gun Modulator, Top Gun speech processor from Sparky's
2. Fatboy base amp - 4 x 1446, AB-1
3. Drake low pass filter (just got it off ebay)
4. IMAX 2000 - chimney mounted. Top of antenna is 50+ feet above ground and 20-25 feet above the roof line. I have solid **Censored** ground wire coming from pole mast down to a 8 or 9 foot **Censored** ground rod.
5. LMR-400 coax
6. LMR-400 coax jumpers
7. Dosy 3001-TCP meter calibrated by Sparky
8. Astastic D104 Silver Eagle

Does the system have bleed over running barefoot? The reason I ask is the biggest flaw of a system that bleeds over is a dirty radio. If you have dirty watts going into the amp, then it's going to more dirty watts coming out. I run a 2950 and mine has never bled over on anything running barefoot. Now, if I run my Imax, then my system will bleed over running power. I can run low power on the Imax with no problem at all. If I switch to my beam, I can run 600 or so watts before I start to bleed over. A lot of mine, has to do with a dirty radio. This is an old 2950 that I need to get replaced with a newer one. Drake's are good low pass filters, as are Bencher YA-1's. You're defiantly not at the realm of the height to get away from the bleed over. I had an Imax mounted higher than that and it did the same thing. Also a lot has to do with cheap electronics. For example, running an Imax I bleed over on MY TV and telephone, and one of my neighbor's TVs, but another neighbor is running a big Sony HD TV, and I don't touch it. Rat Shack sells little high pass filters you can put on your coax to your TV, but they don't work, so don't get scammed into buying one. You can take #5-8 out of the picture..they're not causing the problem. Do you have another radio you can try? You also may want to try adjusting the MIC gain down some to see if that helps. I bet a lot of the problem is over modulation. If you have that booming sound, which I know you do b/c it has been top gun modulated, then the modulation is too high. You may be able to correct this by turning the mic gain down a bit. Give me a lil more info and I can probably help out more

[DX_MONKEY]

Hey IceMan,

Congrats on the new setup

You may have too much modulation going

Top Gun Modulator....Top Gun Speech Processor

We all like loud audio but there is such a thing as TOO loud. Nothing bleeds like blasting loud audio. Do you have a modulation meter? Dosy and others have them. Try turning the modulation down and keeping it under 100% You can still be loud without being too loud.

There is a goober in my small town who insists on running big power and being overmodulated every time he keys up. What a key clown (hey no offense Bozo ) I could.....just kill this guy. And I may have to someday. But as long as I keep drinking I'll probably be alright.


good luck

[icemanrrc]

Thanks for the quick reply Linx!

I wouldn't think the radio is dirty. I purchased it from Sparky. He touts clean watts and has a pretty decent reputation. Not saying it isn't possible, but I figured it wasn't probable.

I haven't noticed if it bleeds barefoot. My wife is the one who pointed out to me about it bleeding all over everything. I didn't have a clue. I was just talking away and then I heard foot steps running down the stairs and she came in my shop and told me I was bleeding on everything. I will try barefoot and see what happens.

My first thought was that maybe the Drake filter wasn't working. After all, I did buy it on Ebay and don't really have a way of knowing if it truly is working or not. But, my meter shows more watts without the filter installed, so I figured it was indeed working.

This is really frustrating. I thought with a AB-1 amp, Drake filter, LMR-400 coax and a properly grounded antenna that I wouldn't have any bleed over problems.

[icemanrrc]

Hi DX Monkey!
My Dosy does have a modulation meter. Here's the thing. I am not no where near 100% modulation. I am even having people telling me I have plenty of signal, but not much audio. I have contacted Sparky about that.

Hey IceMan,

Congrats on the new setup

You may have too much modulation going

Top Gun Modulator....Top Gun Speech Processor

We all like loud audio but there is such a thing as TOO loud. Nothing bleeds like blasting loud audio. Do you have a modulation meter? Dosy and others have them. Try turning the modulation down and keeping it under 100% You can still be loud without being too loud.

There is a goober in my small town who insists on running big power and being overmodulated every time he keys up. What a key clown (hey no offense Bozo ) I could.....just kill this guy. And I may have to someday. But as long as I keep drinking I'll probably be alright.


good luck

[preacherman]

Couple of thoughts:
1. Probably should have kept the Maco...less rfi issues than antron/imax
2. Where is the filter? Before or after the amp?
I'd put it between the radio and the amp. (Garbage in...garbage out)
3. How hard are you driving the amp? It will be cleaner when not being
driven to squeeze the last watt out.
4. When you are running 400+ watts, grounding becomes very important.
So many of our new electronics don't have squat for comb filters in them
and it's really hard NOT to get into them. Have you done a balun just below
the antenna? Four-five coils about the size of a coffee can and taped together
can help if the problem is feedline radiation.
5. It's a good thing to run an extra ground from the antenna...the possible problem here
is that that copper wire you ran is being seen as an additional radiator. Do you have
good swr's?

Good luck...
preacherman

[KI4MSJ]

Also just to add to everyone else. The length of yor ground ire may be to long. Anytin close to a half wave length or more is going to resonate like an antenna.he ground needs to be as short as possible. If you can't shorten yourground, disconnect it and see what happens

[icemanrrc]

1. Couldn't keep the Maco. It was my first choice for a reason but...... blah, blah, blah, now I have an Imax.

2. The filter is installed after the amp. I have jumper from radio to amp "in". I have a jumper from amp "out" to filter "in". Jumper from filter out to meter in. Antenna is connected to meter "out".

3. I believe the radio is deakeying about 2 watts and swinging around 45 watts and supposedly clean on the scope. I thought being that it is a 4 pill amp with no driver, this setup would be fine.

4. I have no idea what a balun is.

5. My SWR is 1.2

Couple of thoughts:
1. Probably should have kept the Maco...less rfi issues than antron/imax
2. Where is the filter? Before or after the amp?
I'd put it between the radio and the amp. (Garbage in...garbage out)
3. How hard are you driving the amp? It will be cleaner when not being
driven to squeeze the last watt out.
4. When you are running 400+ watts, grounding becomes very important.
So many of our new electronics don't have squat for comb filters in them
and it's really hard NOT to get into them. Have you done a balun just below
the antenna? Four-five coils about the size of a coffee can and taped together
can help if the problem is feedline radiation.
5. It's a good thing to run an extra ground from the antenna...the possible problem here
is that that **Censored** wire you ran is being seen as an additional radiator. Do you have
good swr's?

Good luck...
preacherman

[Circuit Breaker]

First things first....try everything WITHOUT the amplifier and see what happens.

Contrary to belief, an Imax or Antron antenna is no more responsible for causing RFI than any other antenna.

[PONY EXPRESS]

I FINALLY got my base setup going after battling coax issues with shorted ends on LMR400. As far as I can tell with my meter, all is well with the coax. But the problem is now I am bleeding all over everything in my house. TVs, answering machine, computer speakers, you name it. I am sure I am bleeding over next door neighbors as well. Can anyone steer me in the right direction on how to eliminate this bleed over problem? Here is my setup.


#1 1st major question have you actually asked your neighbors if you are causing issues? If not that is a major hurdle you don't have to cross. That would be my 1st major concern keeping my neighbors at peace. Your family wont complain to the FCC just to you. Dad your on my MP3 player......
#2 If your using your amp for CB try it without and see what it does. If amp has lower stages try dropping the power level .
#3 If you haven't done it yet wind a RF Coaxial choke of 7 Turns about the size of 6 inches across "aka diameter" at the closest point to your antenna.
#4 For your speakers on computers you can get ferrite chokes that you can wind around the speaker leads.
#5 Chokes are available from phone company that they can hook outside on your external phone junction box.
#6 Do you have your a good solid ground on your antenna from antenna directly to ground? 8 ft ground rod ..?
#7 Do you have all your electronics in your radio room all hooked up to a shortest ground as possible? Not a piece of wire 18 gauge going out to a ground but a real ground strap to yeap another 8 ft ground rod.
#8 Try another radio if all else fails or even try another radio barefoot 1st .......but I would be concerned with #1 the most ....

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[DX_MONKEY]

Hi everybody,

Friendly tip:

Antennas by design are never responsible for bleedover. PLACEMENT of any antenna CAN be a source of proximity overload as in the antenna is too close to the shack or the house so you have a TX source close to the other items that are being interfered with. But there are just as many examples of close-in antennas that don't cause any interference to anything.

Interference and bleeding is almost always caused by a trashy-dirty signal coming out of the radio.

good luck pal

[TwentyTwo-Zero]

Good info here. I wonder about the D104 w/modulation kit combo. I know that when running one of my D104 mics if the gain on it is turned up too high I will bleed on my own nearby electronics - without a modulation kit in my radio(s). Excessive modulation is a common culprit of bleed over that is often overlooked. If you have one, try using a non-amplified mic. Grounding is important. You should have a ground strap on your radio, amp, low pass filter(s) and meter. All should be kept as short as possible. Be aware though that all RFI will not be eliminated by grounding. If your TV, Answering Machine, Speakers, etc. are experiencing front end overload (due to high field strength of the antenna) the only way to reduce/eliminate it is through shielding and filters on the effected devices. This works on some devices, but not all. If the housing of the effected device is plastic or a non-metal composite it may still experience front end overload. Another good point made is the length of the ground wire on your antenna. At 20-25 feet it could easily be radiating - especially if it is round. Rather then a long length of wire, you may need to use a flat solid piece of c0pper (or braid). Also (as mentioned) you may need to create an RF choke with the coax (at the base of the antenna) to help eliminate any common mode current (the signal traveling back down the outside shield of the coax) that may be present. Location of the low pass filter is critical. You should have one located at the output of the radio, and (if needed) another one located at the output of the amp. TVI/RFI can be a real pain to isolate the cause and eliminate, but through a process of elimination can usually be reduced/eliminated. Good luck...

[dud muck]

PONY EXPRESS: please quote, your confusing me.

#3 is a great idea, prevents RF from traveling back down the coax on the outside of the shield. If coiling up the coax is unworkable because of flexibility, you have the alternative of clamping on split-bead ferrites. Another similar issue is RF traveling down the guy wires. Ask yourself how many feet of guy wire between insulators, because its possible there isn't enough insulators.

And about grounding your antenna to a ground rod.. This is for lightening protection and a static drain. Impossible to be an RF ground since the ground is more than 1/4 wave away.
Make sure you are not grounding your radio equipment to the AC mains ground, meaning your electrical outlet ground. RF going into this connection can spread RF throughout your house an everywhere. Power supplies usually connect to this ground, but the negative post on the supply should be insulated from ground. Your station ground should be that ground rod. Also avoid using cold water pipe for ground for the same reason.

The SS158EDX is a dual-final radio, since its putting out up to 45w PEP. its possible this is too much RF drive for your 4xSD1446.

[icemanrrc]

dud muck,
Thanks for your response. I have a question or two though. Exactly what do I ground all of my equipment with, how do I ground it and where can I purchase the grounding materials I will need? I know these must be stupid questions, but I have little knowledge of this stuff. I have read and read, and searched and searched but still don't quite understand everything. I wonder what size ferrites I will need for the LMR-400? Should I get the kind that snap on? Where can I get them?
Thank you again for all of your help.

PONY EXPRESS: please quote, your confusing me.

#3 is a great idea, prevents RF from traveling back down the coax on the outside of the shield. If coiling up the coax is unworkable because of flexibility, you have the alternative of clamping on split-bead ferrites. Another similar issue is RF traveling down the guy wires. Ask yourself how many feet of guy wire between insulators, because its possible there isn't enough insulators.

And about grounding your antenna to a ground rod.. This is for lightening protection and a static drain. Impossible to be an RF ground since the ground is more than 1/4 wave away.
Make sure you are not grounding your radio equipment to the AC mains ground, meaning your electrical outlet ground. RF going into this connection can spread RF throughout your house an everywhere. Power supplies usually connect to this ground, but the negative post on the supply should be insulated from ground. Your station ground should be that ground rod. Also avoid using cold water pipe for ground for the same reason.

The SS158EDX is a dual-final radio, since its putting out up to 45w PEP. its possible this is too much RF drive for your 4xSD1446.

[80 meter man]

I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if this had already been suggested. I'll bet your ground wire is the culprit! The Imax-2000 has no ground plain so its using the coax braid and the ground wire for its ground plane. Try removing the ground wire temporally and see if anything changes. If things do change then you need a ground plane kit for the Imax. Or it might just be as simple as to much modulation drive.

[dud muck]

dud muck,
Thanks for your response. I have a question or two though. Exactly what do I ground all of my equipment with, how do I ground it and where can I purchase the grounding materials I will need? I know these must be stupid questions, but I have little knowledge of this stuff. I have read and read, and searched and searched but still don't quite understand everything. I wonder what size ferrites I will need for the LMR-400? Should I get the kind that snap on? Where can I get them?
Thank you again for all of your help.

Grounding your equipment wont help TVI or RFI into other equipment.
I just wanted to make sure your not using the AC mains or water pipe as ground.

80 meter man has a great suggestion, the ground radial kit for the imax 2000. should reduce RF on the coax.

try snap on ferrites with inner diameter the same or slightly larger than outer diameter of lmr-400.

[icemanrrc]

Has anyone tried one of these?
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[linx]

Has anyone tried one of these?
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I will not link, but Rat Shack has those cheaper.

I have tried them, they did nothing for me.

[lonesome 500]

here is your problem........peaked, tuned, Top Gun Modulator, Top Gun speech processor

any radio will do 100 percent mod without these ''gimmicks''.....really low carrier...and trying to pep to the moon trashes carrier insertion

try with these off

[jessejamesdallas]

Problem is Not with your radio, or antenna, or ground's....

Problem is the FatBoy! And you can try all the gadgets you want, but it wont help...That's just a side-affect of running these box's....I don't care who makes them, or what they claim...They will ALL bleed like-a-stuck Pig!

If you want to get more out of your radio, without bleeding on your neighbors, and making your wife mad. Then you need to think of going bigger with your antenna....

You can do the same thing by up-grading your antenna system, as you can trying to run more watt's....More db gain you get from your antenna, the stronger your signal will be. Plus your receive will greatly improve. That is something that No Amp can do!

[209 first class]

i see you have a piggy bank full already, but here is my 2 cents. original post states you have solid c*o*p*p*er ground wire from antenna to ground rod. thats the worst. rf easily travels back up the wire and re-radiates.. c*o*p*p*e*r strap offres the least resistance, and rf finds it hard to travel in the reverse direction. if you cant afford the solid, go for braid. are all the ground connections shiny and soldered? rf needs a better conection than regular electricity. each connection is like a bridge, if the bridge is weaker than the conductor before it, the rf would rather travel backwards where it meets less resistance. you didnt mention any shack ground. tell us all the details. as several have said, overmodj will do it everytime no matter how well grounded. if u are lucky, u are only coming thru your house, not the neighboors. how far apart are the houses? if you cant do a ground in the shack less than 8'6", search counterpoise ground in this forum, maybe you can try that. 209