10 meter

[gunner57]

I know this is a CB forum but I am curious to find out some info and maybe expand from 11 meter and add 10 meter to the hobby. I constantly travel up in the deep woods, well out of cell phone range. CBs are a must to comunicate with other friends as well as log truck drivers in the area. The reason that I am interested in the 10 meter ham is that I can't comunicate with the wife and kids at the house. Being anywhere from 15 up to 100 miles from home, home is well out of range of the CB. CBs might work great truck to truck for short distance comunicae, I would like to install a second radio, a 10 meter, for calling home. I go on week long fishing and hunting trips and sometimes work in the woods for a month at a time. I would like to be able to say good night to the kids and give updates to the wife. I know my wife and I would need to aquire an FCC operator license for the 10 meter band. But are the radios just over powered and over worked CBs with a slight frequency variation? Are they short lived due to the high wattage? I checked out a ham forum and they (2 meter operators) were bashing the 10 meter radios saying "if it looks like a CB its junk. Get a real radio." It sounds like a Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge debate. A Ford owner will say only Ford is worth buying and that Dodge and Chevy suck and visa versa. When in reality they all make good and crap alike. I just want a "no-crap" outlook on 10 meter radios.

What kind of distance are they capable of?

Is 100 miles through the woods too much to expect without a repeater station?

Should I buy a low watt (50-75W) radio and run a linear amp to boost it up? Or is it safe to buy the 200W radio without worrying about burning it out in a month?

[Night Crawler]

I just want a "no-crap" outlook on 10 meter radios.
What kind of distance are they capable of?

A 10 meter radio will have the same propagation or cover the same distance as a 11 meter cb running the same amount of power and using the same type of antenna.

The 11 meter cb band is on 27mhz and 10 meters is on 28mhz which is only 1mhz apart so the operating conditions for receiving and transmitting are almost identical.

100 miles through the woods too much to expect without a repeater station?

Yes and if you had to use a repeater on 10 meters you'll be lucky to find one close to your location. I live near the NYC area and the closest 10 meter repeater to me is over 100 miles away.
If your getting your ham license look into a 2 meter or 70cm radio which will give you access to a lot of repeaters many of which are linked to IRLP or Echolink which can give you worldwide coverage.

I checked out a ham forum and they (2 meter operators) were bashing the 10 meter radios saying "if it looks like a CB its junk. Get a real radio.

I would of told them to give me the radio your using then!

[gunner57]

I knew that they operated on similar freqs but the power limits set by the FCC are much different between 10 and 11 meter. I read that you can change the crystals on a 10 meter radio and make a screaming 11 meter, but very illegal. I would rather just spend the $15, study, and take the test to get my operator license for 10 meter. So do you think that the 10 meter would talk 100 miles radio to radio? I don't really need, or want to talk around the world, haha, just call home. The furthest (not counting skips) I have covered with my CB was 11 miles (probably 9.5-10 miles as the crow flies.) Most of the time my CB averages about 4-7 miles unless I am in mountainous terrain.

I have seen the 25W marine radios mounted in trucks talk, depending on terrain, an average of 20-30 miles. I know that they operate on AM as well, though I don't know what freq range they use. I even saw them comunicate as far as 70 miles hilltop to hilltop. But again, even with an FCC license for that band, the marine radios are for over water comunication not over land. Nor would the average distance be enough for my use anyway.

Do they make mobile 2 meter?

[721HACKSAW]

Look into HAM clubs in your area, many times clubs support there own 2m Repeaters. Voice and Data traffic on 2m requires a Technician License, the first level of HAM privledges. There are a lot of good 2m mobile radios, using a repeater requires a lot more than the average CB realizes though. 10m won't be any help, that band depends on propagation (skip) for longer distance talking, the extra power allowed doesn't make that big of a difference.
Look into other area HAM operators, go to a meeting, ask questions, it takes a little learning to get involved but once you do, lookout.

[gunner57]

Thanks for the info. I will definately look into it. Especially if there is mobile setups in the 2 meter band. I am new even to the CB world so any info is greatly welcomed. Sad that I know more than a lot of people but at the same time know so little. I guess it isn't hard when most people think radios are plug and play items.

[Night Crawler]

So do you think that the 10 meter would talk 100 miles radio to radio?

For a communications of 100 miles possibly I don't know how reliable they would be maybe if both stations were running a decent amount of power and using gain antennas such as beams and nothing was blocking the signal I've never been able to do it on 10 meters myself using groundwave.
If you you want to be able to communicate 100 miles or more with a reliable signal 40 meters would be the band to use.

I don't really need, or want to talk around the world, haha, just call home.

The reason I mentioned that is because a lot of repeaters on 2m, 1 1/4 m and 70cm have IRLP (internet repeater linking program) which means if you can access a repeater thats close to you that has IRLP and the person your want to talk to has a repeater with IRLP near them you will be able to have reliable communications using a minimum amount of power and antenna system.
To give you an example there is a 2m repeater that's close to me I'm about 25 southwest of NYC and using a HT with a rubber duck antenna and 1 1/2 watts using IRLP I'm able to communicate with someone in Delaware.

Do they make mobile 2 meter?

They sure do take your pick of manufactuers.

[gunner57]

If you you want to be able to communicate 100 miles or more with a reliable signal 40 meters would be the band to use.

I don't think I have heard of the 40 meter. What kind of cost are we talking for a unit for the house and a mobile unit for my pick-up from radios to antennas? Just ballpark for nothing fancy, just to get me talking to the wife from out in the boonies?

I appreciate the info.

[Night Crawler]

I don't think I have heard of the 40 meter. What kind of cost are we talking for a unit for the house and a mobile unit for my pick-up from radios to antennas? Just ballpark for nothing fancy, just to get me talking to the wife from out in the boonies?

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It wouldn't be cost effective for your purposes something used for a radio in the house and one in the mobile would cost over $1000 not including the antenna for the mobile the antenna for the house you could make, also a general class or higher amateur license would be required.
But that's the band that would give you the coverage you need.

[goofy]

Your best bet is to get into 2m/70cm and talk through a repeater.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but there isn't any magic 10 meter "push to talk" solution that is going to work reliably at 100 miles without lots and lots of power, and most importantly, antennas at heights not practical to the average operator.

[Tucker442]

Not to sound like a wise guy so please don't take it that way, really Sideband operation on a non skip for 100 miles is not unheard of. If you use an export radio or a 25 watt dual final CB on like 39 or 40 lower or upper sideband 100 miles should really not be a big problem. There is a guy here in the north east that does a thing he calls the DX tour, he goes all around the area on weekends and most base radios within 150 miles of him can talk with little problem, so don't give up on 11 meters as long as the skip is not rolling and I won't even get into the freebanding

[gunner57]

Your best bet is to get into 2m/70cm and talk through a repeater.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but there isn't any magic 10 meter "push to talk" solution that is going to work reliably at 100 miles without lots and lots of power, and most importantly, antennas at heights not practical to the average operator.

That is why I am happy to hear everyone's input. Being a bit wet behind the ears, in the radio arena, I am trying to get all the info I can before I go out and dump money into a system that may or may not work.

Talking through a repeater isn't likely for what I need the radios for. I need it for when I am deep in the forest trying to call home. There are no cell towers or even powerlines out there, so repeating stations aren't likely. Cell service is possible in certain spots if you have a booster (not the kind you get for $10 bucks but a real booster), but even those areas are few and far between. I want something more dependable. Granted, most of the time I am only about 20-40 miles from town, which isn't much of a problem for most of these radios (70cm, 2m, 10m, etc.). Occasionally I venture a bit furher and can be 100 miles away. So I am looking for a consistant, radio to radio, up to 100 mile comunication.

I think the reason I started looking at the 10 meter was that many of the radios are inexpensive, comparatively, and I think the frequencies are close enough to use CB antenna equipment that I already have. Even the top loaded whips, though having the lowest power handling capability, still can carry up to 1000W. But from what everyone is saying, 10 m won't garrantee a reliable 100 mile comunication without repeating stations, and 40 m is the way to go.

[721HACKSAW]

I believe that in referring to "10m" you really mean an "Export" CB. There are lots of really powerful "Export" CB radios available, they are called HAM radios and have the capability to go to 10m, but are really just a CB on steroids, many with an amp built right into the radio. The antennas you choose for your base and mobile unit are going to be the limiting factors no matter what kind of radio you get. Terrain is another thing, if you have lots of hills between you and the base communication is difficult. Mother Nature can squash the best laid plans.

[Radio 75]

Gunner, lots of information here for you but I concur with those that say 10 or 11 meters just will not be reliable for your needs.
If there is an amateur 2 meter repeater close enough to where you are in the woods chances are you will be able to "hit it" with a
good mobile. They usually run 50-70 watts on high power, and a quality high gain antenna helps get that power used!
Also, most ham repeaters have what is called an autopatch, which is basically a radio to telephone connection.
You use your mobile radio to talk to the repeater, punch in a secret code to get a dial tone, and dial your number.
They are not as widely used as they used to be since cell phones are so prolific, but they would work well for you to call home
and check in with your family. You would not want to have a 20 minute conversation of course, but a basic hello, I am fine
would be perfectly OK, since you have no cell service in the boonies. (autopatch is not to be used to circumvent regular commercial
communications)

There ya go, more food for thought.

[goofy]

But from what everyone is saying, 10 m won't garrantee a reliable 100 mile comunication without repeating stations, and 40 m is the way to go.

40meter band will not guarantee that either. If your expecting to just be able to key up, and get your wife and kids, sorry but you will be disappointed...

I'm not trying to disappoint you, I am an absolute radio freak, but your expectations are not realistic...

It is true that 40 meters is at a really sweet spot on the radio spectrum. Pretty much 24X7 by 365 by any year in the sunspot cycle that band is open to somewhere...

But that doesn't mean that operator A and operator B 100 miles away from each other are just going to be able to key up and talk, it just does not work that way. Somebody 3 states away, or on another continent, might hear you, and the operator 100 miles away may hear absolutely nothing...

Also 40 meter radios are very inefficient in mobile set ups, this has to do with required antenna length...

I'm not trying to be a **Censored**, really I'm not, but you are NOT just going to get a "40 meter" radio, plug it into the cigarette lighter, and throw a mag mount on top, push to talk, and be instantly and reliably connected to the exact person you wanted to talk to 100 miles away...

40 meter radios, particularly if you know Morse Code, can make a great back country emergency/survival tool, for getting a message out to 'someone'. But what you are imagining just isn't how they work.

ALE radios, and Satellite phones were invented for a reason...

[gunner57]

ALE radios, and Satellite phones were invented for a reason...

If I was a lawyer or a doctor I could afford the phone and airtime for a sat phone. Never heard of an ALE radio.

[Night Crawler]

Never heard of an ALE radio.

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[Knight]

I think that everybody here is trying to give you the right answer.

The question then becomes - why would someone want to mess around trying to talk on 10 meters when they could talk on 2 meters - 146 mhz for less money.
The answer is to join a local ham radio club that has repeaters and join the other clubs that has other repeaters in your area - even if they ask $20 a year per a club - you might get into the whole thing for less then $100 a year and be welcome and legal to use all their repeaters.

The plus side to joining a Ham Radio club - besides the privilege of getting to use their repeaters when ever you want.

The one comment I will make is that the dual bander radio looks to be the way to go.
The one thing that I would avoid is trying to use Echo Link right now.
I have been sitting here all day listening to the net and all the people on the radio are talking about is trying to get Echo Link to download and to work.

My opinion is to let the people more knowledgeable figure it all out before outlaying a bunch of money on something that has been around a while now and most people still can't get it to work.
The versions I saw were all Windows 7 and VISTA - which wouldn't work on my computer anyways.
I only heard one long range conversation today and that was a guy from Florida who got his to work and for some reason it was coming on over the repeater in Cambria County PA probably 500 miles away.

Shortwave - 2 Meters is great for truckers - because they can get on the repeaters and talk with each other and meet up for some coffee at the truck stops and stuff and not have to wade through the CB radio traffic or the limitations - which usually amount to not being able to talk more then 18 miles. All that means is that if one person is going 60 MPH in one direction and the other is going 60 MPH in the other - you can talk for about 9 minutes before you are out of range.

This way here - you can probably talk 15 minutes to a half a hour depending on which direction you are traveling in and how far your radio will reach out before the repeaters drops you.

[gunner57]

I think that everybody here is trying to give you the right answer.

The question then becomes - why would someone want to mess around trying to talk on 10 meters when they could talk on 2 meters - 146 mhz for less money.
The answer is to join a local ham radio club that has repeaters and join the other clubs that has other repeaters in your area - even if they ask $20 a year per a club - you might get into the whole thing for less then $100 a year and be welcome and legal to use all their repeaters.

The plus side to joining a Ham Radio club - besides the privilege of getting to use their repeaters when ever you want.

Shortwave - 2 Meters is great for truckers - because they can get on the repeaters and talk with each other and meet up for some coffee at the truck stops and stuff and not have to wade through the CB radio traffic or the limitations - which usually amount to not being able to talk more then 18 miles. All that means is that if one person is going 60 MPH in one direction and the other is going 60 MPH in the other - you can talk for about 9 minutes before you are out of range.

I need it for radio to radio comm. for comunicating with my wife at home from up in the woods. There is no repeaters there. It isn't for hobby chat with people all over the world, just to talk to my wife and kids when I am in the forest working/hunting/fishing. I was refered to ALE radios but they are way out of my price range. Too bad for me. I need a radio that can talk about 50 miles or more without a repeater, if such a thing exists.

[Knight]

I made a mistake here - it isn't 500 miles from Florida to Pennsylvania, it is 904 miles between Northern Cambria and Tampa Florida.

I guess I couldn't explain myself good enough for you to understand what I am trying to say.
Let me try a little harder here.

Anyone with access to electricity and a piece of high ground can essentially put up a repeater.
All a repeater is - is a antenna and a transmitter that receives your signal, amplifies it and repeats it - usually on a different channel - which technically is called a translator.
In order for a repeater to only broadcast a signal which has permission from the owner of the repeater - they use something called a Private Line - PL number. PL is a registered trademark of Motorola - so I will try to explain. When you transmit - the PL has a tone which the repeater recognizes and will allow you to use their repeater.
With Ham radio and GMRS - and public utilities and business radios all over the place, it is not uncommon for someone somewhere to put up a repeater.
The trick is knowing where it is at, knowing which frequency it uses, getting permission to use it and not tying it up for hours on end.
Some repeaters - to save the transmitter in case something is stuck and the repeater will actually run until it burns up - they put in something called Time out. What time out does is shuts off the repeater after say 15 minutes of continuous conversation.
In my opinion - it would be like me owning a ice cream stand and telling you that you are welcome to stop in anytime and have a free ice cream cone.
If you did it once or twice a year - I wouldn't have a problem with that.
If you did it everyday, after a while it would get to be annoying.

When you get a license, even the most basic of licenses, it will only allow you some access to some frequencies. The 146 Mhz band is what we call 2 Meters - because of the length of the wavelength. Essentially with 2 Meters and a repeater that can utilize Echo Link you can talk to any other repeater anywhere else in the world that is also subscribed to Echo Link.
The way that it works - and I can't promise you that I know it all here is - that you talk to the first repeater. That repeater is connected to a computer that has internet access.
The computer talks through the internet to a computer which is linked to another tower in the area you desire to talk. That transmitter transmits your signal on that tower and your wife would have a radio which was tuned into the frequency of the tower and could hear your conversation in real time between the two - as if you were talking radio to radio or radio to tower to radio. It's really quick!

The problem is - that you are the only person that is licensed to operate the radio.
Your wife cannot transmit off your license - she has to get her own license.
The size of the antenna on your truck and the amount of output power allowed by the FCC according to your radio operators license is usually limited to say 100 watts maximum ERP PEP - which is Peak Envelope Power.
100 watts is not a alot of power in the grand scheme of things.
CB by law was limited to 5 watts on AM and about 15 Watts on SSB
Because SSB does not use the carrier - it is possible to get 15 watts out of a 5 watt radio.
The " " outlaw rigs you are talking about that claims to be 10 meters - is like others has said, nothing but a hopped up CB rig. 100 Watts PEP is actually more like 12 - 15 watts real power.

It would be kind of like me trying to sell you a lawnmower which has 5 horsepower.
If I didn't want to say 5 HP, I could also describe the engine size as 125 CC
125 CC looks like a much larger number and looks more like the size of a motor cycle engine, which would deceive you into thinking that the engine on the lawnmower is much larger. When in all actuality the piston is 3 inches in diameter and the stroke is 3 inches.

I keep trying to explain myself - and you don't appear to be listening.
Join a Ham Radio Club.
Those people does this as a hobby.
They know where the repeaters are at.
They know which frequencies the repeaters are on.
They will help you to get your licenses.
They will permit you to use their repeaters if you join the club.
Most clubs are so desperate for members right now that you can attend the meetings for free and they usually have coffee and doughnuts after the meeting and you can get to meet a bunch of nice people...
Just go and have a good time and if it isn't what you are looking for - you aren't out anything except a little bit of your time.
Chances are - if your employer or the people who are logging has radios that works where you are working, one way or another, they will hook you up with the information as to how to get on the net to use those privileges.

I know that everyone is looking for something that is FREE that you can just buy and use - without a license or a investment in time and money that will get you what you are looking for. In the old days the CB radio was a rather cheap way of communicating between two places and two people. But unless you are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a Sat Phone and a subscription to it's services - two way radio is about your only other option.
I have no other solution to your problem - unless you were willing to put up your own repeater system and apply for a license for GMRS and was willing to move it from location to location as the job site changes from week to week.
I don't think that anybody has to be that connected to home that they can't go to work for a couple of hours a day without phone service. If that is the case - then you need to get another job!

[Knight]

Read this - Non-line-of-sight propagation


An active repeater is a powered piece of equipment essentially comprising a receiving antenna, a receiver, a transmitter and a transmitting antenna. If the ends of the NLOS link are at positions A and C, the repeater is located at position B where links A-B and B-C are in fact LOS. The active repeater may simply amplify the received signal and re-transmit it un-altered at either the same frequency or a different frequency. The former case is simpler and cheaper but requires good isolation between two antennas to avoid feedback, however it does mean that the end of the NLOS link at A or C does not require to change the receive frequency from that used for a LOS link.

[genesbro]

If you own the business that takes you out into the forest for that month then maybe you can buy one of those trailers with the tower that raises up to a 100 feet or so and is self supporting and make it a business expense. If that is possible then you could put either a cell phone antenna for one of those cell phone boosters about 150-200 dollars which might get you cell service or use it to get 10 or 11 meter antenna up where you would have good signal strength.
If that won't work for cell service then you will have to have SSB radios for either the 10 or 11 meter service to have a chance of working.
I know for a fact that you can talk 50-75 miles mobile to base with SSB with average conditions, and if you had that trailer with the tower with a base station antenna on it then you would be abe to reach out to that 100 mile range using SSB. I don't have anyone here to talk with at that range but used to live 112 miles from a friend and we both had good beam antennas and we talked everyday without fail using SSB with stock cb radios and no amps.
With SSB it is not uncommon to see no movement on the s-meter and still hear the other station clearly enough hold a conversation. That is how it is at the extreme range mobile to mobile or mobile to base.
I have done all my SSB work with my old cobra 148. That radio has a very good receiver with extremely low noise in the receive section.

It will require above average radios for you base and mobile and a beam for the base and the best mobile antenna you can get, 102 whip or one of those new style things with the big coil and long stinger.

Contact your local vec rep and meet with him to talk over what you want to do. He should be able to either confirm that what you want to do is possible or not, if he is close to your area he might even be able to give you a demo. I am over 100 miles from my nearest rep, hopefully you are a little closer to yours. If you were on 2 meters even a HH unit should be able to hit a repeater so if you and the wife had a ham ticket that would be the least expensive way to go and if you could do the phone patch then you could just call home and then all you need is the mobile or HH unit. They usually put the repeater in the highest locaton available so I would think there would be one somewhere around that you would be able to hit.

Gooe luck and talk with the rep for the best information.

[gunner57]

The problem is - that you are the only person that is licensed to operate the radio.
Your wife cannot transmit off your license - she has to get her own license.
The size of the antenna on your truck and the amount of output power allowed by the FCC according to your radio operators license is usually limited to say 100 watts maximum ERP PEP - which is Peak Envelope Power.

The " " outlaw rigs you are talking about that claims to be 10 meters - is like others has said, nothing but a hopped up CB rig. 100 Watts PEP is actually more like 12 - 15 watts real power.

Chances are - if your employer or the people who are logging has radios that works where you are working, one way or another, they will hook you up with the information as to how to get on the net to use those privileges.

I know that everyone is looking for something that is FREE that you can just buy and use - without a license or a investment in time and money that will get you what you are looking for. In the old days the CB radio was a rather cheap way of communicating between two places and two people. But unless you are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a Sat Phone and a subscription to it's services - two way radio is about your only other option.
I have no other solution to your problem - unless you were willing to put up your own repeater system and apply for a license for GMRS and was willing to move it from location to location as the job site changes from week to week.
I don't think that anybody has to be that connected to home that they can't go to work for a couple of hours a day without phone service. If that is the case - then you need to get another job!

First and foremost, where I work or what I do for work is my business. I am here to get some friendly advice on comunication posibilities that I may use to contact my wife when I am gone for 1-2 months at a time running bear bait for hunting clients. Or up on long hunting and fishing trips. It is hardly "a couple hours without talking on the phone", insinuating that I am some lazy dirtbag who chats on his cell instead of working.

Secondly, I never said anything about illegaly using equipment without a license or getting anything for free. Instead, I am here asking questions to find if and what would best suite my purpose and aquire the proper FCC license accordingly and my wife getting one as well. I certainly do not need any assumptions that I am planning on anything illegal. Most likely nothing exists I can afford, that will serve my use. 10 meter may be modified CBs, I don't know but funny the FCC has a license for them. Maybe the problem you refer is when people change the freqs on them to CB channels. Again, I never insinuated doing anything of the sort.

Loggers do use radios up there. CBs for calling their positions as to not run into each other on the narrow, curvy dirt roads. They don't use them for calling to town.

If I misunderstood your input as rudeness and that wasn't your intentions, then I appologize. But it came across as rude.

[gunner57]

Contact your local vec rep and meet with him to talk over what you want to do. He should be able to either confirm that what you want to do is possible or not, if he is close to your area he might even be able to give you a demo. I am over 100 miles from my nearest rep, hopefully you are a little closer to yours. If you were on 2 meters even a HH unit should be able to hit a repeater so if you and the wife had a ham ticket that would be the least expensive way to go and if you could do the phone patch then you could just call home and then all you need is the mobile or HH unit. They usually put the repeater in the highest locaton available so I would think there would be one somewhere around that you would be able to hit.

Gooe luck and talk with the rep for the best information.

I will give that a try. I coul look into an ssb radio used and try that too. That would be cheap enough. If it turned out not to have enough range, I am sure I could sell them and get my money back. If it does work I can purchase newer radios when I save enough money.

Someone told me about ALE radios and they seemed like they would do what I need, but a used radio is like 1300-1500 bucks not to mention antennas and power supply. One ALE radio is out of my budget let alone two. So thanks for the tip.

[Night Crawler]

I am here to get some friendly advice on comunication posibilities

If you need any information about repeaters and how they work just ask I've built several for 2m, 1 1/4 m and 70cm that have been on the air for a number of years.

[Night Crawler]

All a repeater is - is a antenna and a transmitter that receives your signal, amplifies it and repeats it - usually on a different channel - which technically is called a translator.

Interesting I've never heard of a repeater referred to as that.

Some repeaters - to save the transmitter in case something is stuck and the repeater will actually run until it burns up - they put in something called Time out. What time out does is shuts off the repeater after say 15 minutes of continuous conversation.

All repeaters that don't have a control operator monitoring the transmit frequency constantly that's able to turn the transmitter off will have a timeout timer.

In case of a malfunction on a repeater without a control operator that causes the transmitter to hang up it will time out after 5 minutes as required by part 97. A repeaters transmitter should be capable of a CCS duty cycle and able to transmit 24/7 without burning up.

An active repeater is a powered piece of equipment essentially comprising a receiving antenna, a receiver, a transmitter and a transmitting antenna.

It would less complicated to use one antenna with a duplexer.